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Location, Location, Location: Why WVU Baseball Might Not Ever Be Relevant

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Last night, the South Carolina Gamecocks won their second consecutive NCAA College World Series title on the field pictured above.  That is TD Ameritrade Park in Omaha, Nebraska: the shining new replacement for old Rosenblatt Stadium, which hosted the CWS from 1950 up until this year, when the event moved into these fancy new digs.

As last night's game neared its conclusion, I got to thinking about how little attention West Virginia University baseball garners, and how equally amazing it is that in 60-plus years West Virginia has never had a team qualify to be in the last eight that go to Omaha.  WVU has made it to the NCAA tournament 22 times, but not since 1996, and if you think about it, that is now four football coaches ago.  Yet, the same man, Greg Van Zant, still heads the baseball program, and clearly isn't held to the same win-or-else standard as those in the two major revenue sports.  But, after a little digging, it seems to me that maybe Van Zant shouldn't be held to that high standard.  It might just be that a single factor limits the possibilities of Mountaineer baseball, and it isn't coaching.  It's location.

Star-divide

College baseball on the whole, has far less resources dedicated to it than other collegiate sports.  That is probably because, unlike the NFL and the NBA, Major League Baseball has never relied on the NCAA to provide a de facto farm system.  The Major League clubs have always had their own systems in place, and a great many players that make it to the big leagues never darken the doors of any institution of higher learning, choosing instead to go straight from high school to the minors.  An old baseball scout friend of mine once told me that he "kept an eye on upperclassmen that might have bloomed out of sight" but that collegiate baseball would always be more of a "developmental league" because the most-talented kids were going to opt to be professionals right away.

This lack of resources is evident when one tries to do something as simple as compile a list of the last 10 year's worth of Final Top 25 polls from Baseball America.  I could only find final polls for the last six seasons, but those in themselves, might provide enough of a snapshot to absolve Van Zant of the charges so many of us have levied against him.  I was going to list each school that appeared multiple times, but it became redundant, as the names really don't change much, only their placings.  Schools that dominate that list are: South Carolina, Cal State Fullerton, Rice, Clemson, Texas, Virginia, North Carolina, LSU, Florida, Arizona, Arizona St., etc.

What do they all have in common?  The South, the West, and the sun.  So, I began looking for schools making an appearance from locations north of Morgantown, and in just these six polls, only Oregon St., Michigan, Nebraska, Minnesota (do they play indoors?), Washington St., Oregon, and Connecticut (this year) did so.  The only Big East teams to make any of the polls: Louisville and UConn.

Further, considering just the teams that have played in the College World Series final, schools from the north are poorly represented.  Not since Eastern Michigan lost to Arizona in 1976 has a school north of Morgantown even made it, and the last one to win it all was Ohio State in 1966.  Which begs the question: can WVU be relevant in baseball when the season begins in the midst of February snows, prompting the team to begin with two-weeks' worth of games in the south?  Can WVU recruit the necessary talent to compete with schools that bask in the sun while we are still shoveling driveways?  Can Mountaineer fans reasonably expect more from Van Zant?

The answers to each of those questions may be "no," but it would be nice if it appeared that baseball mattered a little bit to the athletic department.  The Mountaineers last game, a 1-0 loss to Notre Dame on May 26th, isn't even updated on the msnsportsnet.com/schedule/results tab.   I had to click on the stats tab and read the 2011 final stats PDF to find that score. 

Perhaps, WVU baseball can't overcome this geographic obstacle to national significance.  But is it a fair question to ask, could WVU baseball be better?  There is no sugar coating that in the last two seasons, the Mountaineers are two games under .500, beat only nine teams with winning records, and arguably had only one quality win, a 9-2 victory over a ranked Louisville team on April Fool's Day this year.  Perhaps we can forgive Van Zant for not getting us on to a field in Omaha, but does that mean we have to forget what it's like to compete with, say, UConn, for Big East titles?  UConn, after all, is way north of Morgantown.

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I think our biggest problem is

We ain’t got no Black players. When the biggest sports name in your college’s history all but calls the man a racist, it ain’t going to help your cause

Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
Remember that long road once more, then kiss it...kiss it goodbye
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan

by WVPiratesfan on Jun 29, 2011 3:27 PM EDT reply actions  

i seriously doubt

that’s the BIGGEST problem… yeah its troubling, but come on… hate GVZ because a bad coach, not because one player (regardless of who) has a fostered opinion of the man that noone else has spoken out on…

by beckett929 on Jun 29, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Pat White said it, there's at least a perception of truth.

Whether it’s true or not, I can’t say. But even the perception isn’t good.

Then again, baseball has a problem system-wide with the attraction of black players to the game. Is WVU’s issues — if they exist at all — just an extension of that?

The Smoking Musket: Like your team's blog, only better.

by Dr. Charley West on Jun 29, 2011 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

definitely agree

There is a problem attracting black players to the sport… OR is it that they are more interested in football (or basketball up North)??

South Carolina has back to back titles with like, one black guy on the team. And I can’t recall any players from Florida being so…

by beckett929 on Jun 29, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

We ain’t got no Black players.

I think if you decided to rank different ways to begin an argument about WVU baseball, that wouldn’t be towards the top.

The Smoking Musket: Like your team's blog, only better.

by Dr. Charley West on Jun 29, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Huh?

Jerry West called Van Zant a racist?!

+1

by WVU_BILLS on Jun 29, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

its about culture...

Living in Myrtle Beach, I’m very impressed with the effort the local little leagues make to have a LEARNING atmosphere towards baseball compared to atmosphere fostered in and around WV where its “daddy’s son gets to pitch regardless of how many batters he hits”.

There’s a massive investment in new baseball parks all over the region here, year-round leagues, and a fostering of players. Its culture. These kids grow up wanting to play baseball if they aren’t football players.

NCAA Baseball is an odd quirk of itself as well. You can carry 25 kids on your roster, but are only alotted 11 scholarships. So, yeah, teams will find ways to get the other 14 on “academic” scholarships and not athletic ones, but its trickier to make the math work. Its not like football where you get a giant sum of 85… or even basketball that allots 12 scholarships for 15 roster spots. And unlike football, where coaches recruit nationally, most of the kids on baseball teams at the collegiate level are close-to-home grown products. So if the local baseball climate isn’t fostering good young players, then it puts alot of strain on the budget for the coaches to handle trying to recruit out-of-area players.

I disagree with the presumption that most kids “if they’re good they never go to college”… there are freaks of nature, like Bryce Harper, but the trend over the last 5-6 years guys are at least going to schools for at least a year or two to just develop physically.

Also, consider this… outside of Duke/UNC, basketball (especially at the early development levels and high school) is a JOKE here in the South!

by beckett929 on Jun 29, 2011 3:28 PM EDT reply actions  

I want to coach HS baseball at some point in the future

and I couldn’t do it around here. By the time you get to Hs you should have an idea of the fundamentals and the manager should be spending more time focusing on how to set up his lineup instead of teaching fundamentals

Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
Remember that long road once more, then kiss it...kiss it goodbye
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan

by WVPiratesfan on Jun 29, 2011 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

every kid's sport in WV suffers

because coaches care more about themselves and winning than TEACHING a 9-14yr old to learn to play. Its kind of disgusting. But its why kids are never recruited to play football at a high level from WV. There’s raw talent in the state, but its SO raw because the best athlete was just supposed to “pat white” everyone to win instead of teaching him to be a QB.

And thats the kind of stuff that happens in every sport back in WV. Its sad. I mean yeah, its nice for kids to win, but I’ve seen up close and personal for years the dramatic differences in coaches there and here across the board.

by beckett929 on Jun 29, 2011 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

You Are Right...

As a Little League coach the last four years, I am shocked at how little “coaching” is done by some coaches. Most just want to manage talent. I used to get to hang around professional athletes as a sportswriter, and I knew a good many baseball people in the Orioles and Reds organizations, so I knew that a typical baseball practice involves station work. The first time I ran a practice with my youngest son, it was amazing how many parents came up gushing about how great the practice had been: which was just three kids per 10-minute station, cycling through four stations, and then a small-sided game. It’s not brain surgery, but a lot of youth coaches don’t want to make the effort.

On the other hand, I don’t know that I would say that it is just something that happens in WV. I would wager that that attitude prevails in a lot of youth sports, because it does so often seem to become more about the coaches/parents coaching a winner than about the kids learning the fundamentals of the game.

Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.

by JP Fanshawe on Jun 30, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

agree 100%

and i dont mean to insinuate that poor coaching at little league levels happens only in WV, its a big problem in alot of places… but you can tell the areas that the coaching is better (the Carolinas, for instance) and its why those kids are so much more prepared and those college teams them are so much better on average

by beckett929 on Jun 30, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve never been invovled with any sport in any city at any level where that kind of coaching DIDN’T happen. I know a lot of parents still complained about the coaching just because they weren’t in charge so it was easy to criticize someone else. But the best development of baseball players isn’t from practicing with their team twice a week, it’s from playing every day all the time on their own so when they go to practice they actually have some kind of understanding and ability to refine. Players are able to do that in the south because of the weather.

It’s no different than basketball. Players develop skills by playing pick-up everyday. If they only play basketball while at practice, the coach is handcuffed.

by The 25314 on Jun 30, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

One thing about WVU baseball:

When we post anything regarding the team, it results in instant page views. People obviously want to care about WVU baseball. There’s a latent interest there — it just needs to be fostered to the point of relevance.

The Smoking Musket: Like your team's blog, only better.

by Dr. Charley West on Jun 29, 2011 3:38 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I may be in the minority, but I don’t really care. I’d be happy if they’re good, but it really doesn’t matter to me.

by The 25314 on Jun 29, 2011 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was the same way in school.

If WVU games were events, however, I think I would have cared a lot more. Looking back, the idea of blowing off afternoon classes for good college baseball really appeals to me. In reality, I just blew off classes for other reasons.

The Smoking Musket: Like your team's blog, only better.

by Dr. Charley West on Jun 29, 2011 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

as the team gets better

interest grows… Coastal Carolina baseball games last year here (as the team was in the top 5 all year), their games were better attended than their football games, better attended than their basketball games (they went 26-5 in bball)..

When you’re good, enough people start to care!

by beckett929 on Jun 29, 2011 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the answer is somewhere in between.

Should we rightfully expect WVU baseball to compete for national titles? Probably not. But given the number of players drafted and the league we play in, we should at least make the tournament on a regular basis.

Northern baseball is not as good as southern baseball, but that doesn’t mean northern baseball is irrelevant. At the lower levels, WVSU makes the D-2 world series, Marietta College has won multiple national championships over the last 30 years at the D-3 level, Ashland University and Ohio Dominican University have both made their respective (D-2 and NAIA) world series multiple times in recent years. So they have found ways to compete with other, similar schools around the country.

And Minnesota typically splits their season between playing at the Metrodome when it’s still cold and playing at their own park once the weather warms up some.

www.smokingmusket.com

by Country Roads on Jun 29, 2011 3:43 PM EDT reply actions  

I will tell give you a quote from one Cal Bailey WVSU head baseball coach
The most over-rated thing in life is sex, the most under-rated is a big shit.

Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
Remember that long road once more, then kiss it...kiss it goodbye
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan

by WVPiratesfan on Jun 29, 2011 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: talent

Since 2000, WVU has had 36 players either get drafted or sign a free agent contract.

By comparison, South Carolina had 20 players in the pros at the end of the 2010 season (couldn’t find a list of players drafted to make a direct comparison).

To me, though, that’s not a huge difference. Even if half of WVU’s draftees were still in the pros, that’s 18 players, only 2 less than USC, who just won back-to-back national titles. So where is the supposed talent gap?

www.smokingmusket.com

by Country Roads on Jun 30, 2011 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

all I hear are excuses

The effin Oregon State Beavers won a title a few years ago. Corvallis is an hour out of Portland (like Morgantown is an hour out of Pittsburgh) and the weather absolutely pisses rain during baseball season.

Excuses.

by oregoneer on Jun 29, 2011 4:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, let’s take Pat White’s word on something. Last time that happened, WVU ended up with a mediocre to bad football coach. What Pat needs to realize that baseball isn’t football. There aren’t a lot of blacks in the sport. It’s not Van Zant’s fault.

As for why WVU isn’t successful in baseball, you’re overlooking the most importance aspect – scholarships. WVU doesn’t have a commitment there, and as a result the team can’t compete with the big boys.

It’s telling that Van Zant wasn’t axed when Luck came and cleaned out the program’s dead weight. Luck knows baseball isn’t in a position to win.

Even if it was, I wouldn’t give a damn.

by Stiles on Jun 29, 2011 5:07 PM EDT reply actions  

This is the kind of apathy and castic-ness(?) I can alway get behind.

by The 25314 on Jun 29, 2011 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not for a lack of blacks playing baseball

because despite what people say a good number of blacks actually do play the game and he can’t find at least one to be on the team

Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Lloyd, Andy Russell, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene, Curtis Martin, Willie Roaf, Andre Reed and Jerry Kramer
Remember that long road once more, then kiss it...kiss it goodbye
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan

by WVPiratesfan on Jun 29, 2011 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you happen to know how many scholarships WVU baseball has?

If they don’t have the full allotment (what is it for D-1 now, 9.8? 11.7?), I would be shocked. Most MAC schools have the full allotment.

www.smokingmusket.com

by Country Roads on Jun 30, 2011 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Location is Everything!

JP- You are right on the money. As a high school coach in the south, I can tell you that the local high school baseball teams workout all winter and begin full practice on February 1st. A high school kid around her can play continuously from February 1st through mid November.
Naturally, therefore, there are a lot more players playing a lot more games in the south. If you add to that the fact that an overwhelming majority of high school athletes go to college within a 200 mile radius of where they live, well, then you see why southern collegese dominate baseball

by WVUSouth on Jun 29, 2011 6:30 PM EDT reply actions  

There Is No Doubt....

that the availability of good weather to play ball has a huge impact. Researching this little piece though, I discovered there is a lot of disdain for the current coach, though.

Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.

by JP Fanshawe on Jun 30, 2011 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

On the one hand, TCU is coming in which could get you a bit more recruiting exposure in the southern sunny areas.

On the other hand, TCU is coming in and will likely have the best overall baseball program in the Big East as long as Jim Schlossnagle is in charge. It’s not unreasonable to expect West Virginia to be better, but better becomes a bit more relative in 2012.

by HawkeyedFrog on Jun 29, 2011 10:24 PM EDT reply actions  

I think that exposure is overrated.

If I’m a high school baseball player in Texas, there is no way I’m going to WV to play college ball. By the way, how good is TCU in baseball? Perennial NCAA tournament team? How many trips to the CWS?

www.smokingmusket.com

by Country Roads on Jun 30, 2011 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

In Those Six Polls...

TCU was unranked in 2006, finished 25th in 2007, 23rd in 2008, 14th in 2009, 3rd in 2010, and 11th this year. So, they are pretty damn good…

Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.

by JP Fanshawe on Jun 30, 2011 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

We hosted a regional this year, went to Omaha last year and won both the regular season and tournament conference championships in the MWC since 2006. So quite good, really.

by HawkeyedFrog on Jun 30, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Win count?

It looks like WVU beat only four teams with a winning record. Not sure where you got the numbers you got.

by David Jenkins 8 on Jun 30, 2011 2:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Four this year...

And five last year. Equals nine. The sentence referenced the last two years….

Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.

by JP Fanshawe on Jun 30, 2011 9:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

They’re still shitty

by WVUColumbus on Jul 1, 2011 8:15 AM EDT reply actions  

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