A New "Statistic" Is Born: Value Over Replacement Coach
by Dr. Charley West on Oct 25, 2010 3:06 PM EDT
in HCBS
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PrintIf anyone is a fan of baseball, and more specifically a fan of baseball statistics, you've probably heard of Value Over Replacement Player, or VORP for short. According to Wikipedia, VORP is:
...a statistic popularized by Keith Woolner that demonstrates how much a hitter contributes offensively or how much a pitcher contributes to his team in comparison to a fictitious "replacement player," who is an average fielder at his position and a below average hitter. A replacement player performs at "replacement level," which is the level of performance an average team can expect when trying to replace a player at minimal cost, also known as "freely available talent."
It's a very easy way to quickly determine if a player is worthy of his position in the lineup.
Now, none of us at The Smoking Musket are smart enough to truly invent a new statistic (well, WVUIE97 might be, but ignore that for now), but we're going to do our best to apply the principals of VORP into our own metric: Value Over Replacement Coach (VORC).
If VORC actually existed, it could be based on a +6 to -6 scale, with the thinking that even a replacement, below average coach can deliver a 6-6 record on a year-to-year basis. A truly great coach, however, is capable of the elusive 12-0 record, while the horrid coach will languish to an 0-12 mark.
Here's where VORC comes into play in WVU-land: HCBS is, for my money, a solid 0 on the VORC scale. He is utterly replaceable. Any coach hired in his stead can reasonably expected to do the same things with WVU's program that are occurring right now. That's not to say it's a guarantee that Steve Kragthorpe or Greg Robinson won't be hired (clearly minus 6 coaches on the VORC scale), but even if a new coach doesn't catch lightning in a bottle, we're right where we started.
But, with a new coach, you at least have the chance for that lightning in a bottle, AKA a coach with a strongly positive VORC score. There's an inherent risk factor when hiring a new coach, but as time marches on, Bill Stewart continues to become a more proven quantity. Unfortunately, that proven quantity isn't looking very tolerable. In my mind, VORC would best gauge where a coach's ability will eventually land his team over the long-haul, not where that coach and his team may reside at this very moment. While Stewart has certainly won more games than he's lost, I believe his abilities as a head coach are headed squarely in the 6-6 direction. With a quality hired based off a measured, national coaching search, we can hopefully find a coach that boasts a +VORC rating.
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I LOVE Where You Are Going With This...
Sabermetrics rock….this is the kind of thing that is right up my alley.
Dr. Charley West…the Bill James of WVU?
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
I Think It Might Be Overstating It A Little Bit
to say that any coach could go 6-6, though. It is just so hard to know about how things are going to go. Al Groh is probably the best example of this. When he was playing all those freshmen, and UVA was on the rise, he seemed like a great hire. Remember when we played them in the bowl game (by the way, fuck their band….) and several pundits mentioned that that game might be a preview of the next year’s national title game? Well, how did that work out. Groh wound up despised by his fan base and fired from his alma mater.
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
The VORC baseline is 6-6, yet Mr. Stewart has a 0 VORC?
If you’re saying different programs have different VORC’s, what are you claiming WVU’s to be? How did you arrive there? And is the baseline static, or is it permitted to vary over time?
by bicklefischerkane on Oct 25, 2010 3:16 PM EDT reply actions
I know it isn't real.
But the imaginary goalposts should at least be marked.
by bicklefischerkane on Oct 25, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
VORC would be more predicative.
Somehow, it would use actual results, statistical rankings, strength of schedule, and recruiting to predict where a coach’s eventual VORC would reside. That’s why I believe HCBS is 0. He is eventually headed to 6-6. Some might thing it’s actually negative, but 0 is as low as I’m willing to go right now.
by Dr. Charley West on Oct 25, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
These are the types of posts that keep me coming back to The Musket....
If only our Offense had this kind of Innovation!!!!!
’’They've done studies you know... 60% of the Time, it works every Time...’’ – Brian Fantana
How About Value Over Replacement OC?
Because Mullen has to be a negative number by an metric, since we are below average in just about every category? Doesn’t that indicate a mid-season change might be worth it? How could it be worse?
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
Eh, mid-season changes are tough.
You would have to promote within, and continuity during the season with such a big change would be tough. But you’re right, it would be hard to be significantly worse.
by Dr. Charley West on Oct 25, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Official comment from AD
“We will not discuss contracts during the season.”
Don’t believe me? Call WVU
by Oregon Mountaineer on Oct 25, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't have a link
I DO have sources
by Oregon Mountaineer on Oct 25, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
HCBS is, for my money, a solid 0 on the VORC scale.
That about sums it up right there. I completely agree with that statement. If he steps in for any school in the nation, he wins the same amount of games.
The problem with replacing him at WVU is that it really carries much more weight than just coaching. The problem here with HCBS is that just on his ability to recruit (and our program’s recruiting in general) he can stay at or near the top of the Big East, because of the general sucking of the conference as a whole. It’s hard to fire a coach that continually sits at the top right? Also, he’s bringing in good recruits so you want to be patient and wait for the perfect storm of recruits to bring it all together. At the same time, the entire team is not in shambles so you don’t want to completely overhaul the entire program, which unfortunately is what happens in the land of college football when you bring in a new head coach (unless he’s brought from within like our last transition). And so we sit and debate what should or will be done, when we all know full well that Bill Stewart just is not gonna be the guy to win us a national title.
Fear the Grier!!!!
Recruiting
Some would say that recruiting is starting to more accurately reflect our perceived state of the program: diminishing. Again, I don’t want to get too caught up in stars, because I believe received offers is a better way to go, but we do have a lot of 3 and 2 star verbals. Even their offers aren’t blowing me away.
by Dr. Charley West on Oct 25, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Good point
I’d just say that the perception is that this team is talented enough to make noise nationally. To me that speaks to good recruiting and poor coaching. Perhaps the recruits are falling off, but when I tune into the Eers games, all I see is raw talent all over the field.
Fear the Grier!!!!
This team is that good.
But future teams may not be. You’re still dealing with recruits from the Rodriguez era as well as recruiting highs based off past results. Those highs aren’t as easily maintained going forward.
by Dr. Charley West on Oct 25, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
and not to beat a dead horse, but...
I don’t see a lot of talent on the line currently or much more coming (Spain and Eger, notwithstanding). The line needs to be mean and nasty….Johnson and McMichael don’t generate those descriptions from me
This is one of the biggest reasons why I continued to support Stew.
I thought that Stew’s VORC was probably a +2, and that most coaches who rate above that would not be interested in coming to WVU, or, if they did, staying for any period of time. After Saturday, I’m not sure that’s the case. It’s looking more and more like at least half the coaches out there could come in and do the same thing, or better. Maybe we can’t go out and get a proven +5, but we can do better than 0.
One question, Charley—-does the analysis change based on which school you’re at? 12-0 at Vanderbilit is different than 12-0 at WVU.
take two of these and call me in the morning
I could link to any number of things right here, but I’m gonna be a good boy today
While we're talking sabermetrics...
Going for it on 4th and 1 from inside your opponents 45 yard line is ALWAYS the statistically correct choice, even if you don’t have WVU’s very good defense.
Yep
We should have gone for it there…
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
Trust me
I’ve been waiting for this moment for 3 years now and I’m not a lesser fan for wanting it. You will soon realize that short term sacrifice will be tolerated at the expense of long term health/viability of the football program. It is normal to feel the way you all are right now. I felt that way the minute I heard that WVU hired the “painter”, as all of you are well aware. I have seen where many (such as BurghMountaineer, WVPirates, etc.) post about the requirement of having unyielding loyalty to the WVU program. I plead to you not to subscribe to this outdated and stagnant way of thinking. If debate and heat weren’t “turned up” it would be very possible that administrations (whether football, business, etc) would continue with the current regime. Many have already spoken as attendance has notably dropped and after this game will do so at a much more rapid clip. I’m not saying that this is good for the program right now. However, I’m also not saying that this is bad for the program in the long haul.
I kept reiterating how WVU was going to run the table, and I did this because our talent is superior to all others (including PITT, especially w/ Wannstedt coaching). I am not surprised at all w/ the outcome of this game. In the back of my mind, I just don’t see how this head coach can lead young men to 10 regular season wins. I understand that it can still happen but it would require WVU to win out and it’s not going to happen. At the end of the day, we all want a National Championship. I understand that you fear the possibility of sacrificing decent bowl opportunities (ie. Gator Bowls, Insight Bowls, etc.) but at the end of the day, let’s take a shot. The state of West Virginia doesn’t always have a lot to hang its hat on, but man, I remember when we came out 28-0 against the Dawgs (in their yard) the same day of Sago. As a West Virginian, I went to work w/ my head held quite a bit higher (in addition to $250 richer). It is a great source of pride and it is the “pro” sport in WV (along w/ b-ball team). It’s tough at the beginning of the season to get excited about likely 8-4, 9-3 outcomes whenever there is 0-1 marquee matchup on the schedule like this season. You guys that spend your Saturdays at Mountaineer Field w/ friends/family deserve much better than that.
Things will get better, and they will get a lot better. Here’s why. WVU’s current president, James Clements, and AD Oliver Luck are for lack of a better term “big time”. Clements is a young President who truly sees the need for a university not only to be an academic power, but also a business power. I think he was a PERFECT fit for WVU after the last embarassment. Oliver Luck is an AD w/ experience of literally building a Top 5 city’s sports infrastructure to unprecedented levels (Houston may be around 5-7 due to Hotlanta). He was the GM of a MLS Champ (Dynamo). He offers infinitely more than his predecessor. I’m not saying that those guys weren’t good for WVU at the time they were here (Garrison….yeah I’m saying that)…..I would equate Garrison and Pastilong to “big time” in places like Charleston, WV. They were the kind of guys that would be CEO of United Bank (West Virginia’s Bank). Clements and Luck are the type of professionals comparable to Bob Reynolds, Ken Kendrick, etc…..established Mountaineers running an MLB team or one of the largest investment firms in the world…..It’s just a different level.
I’m honestly not going to worry about who the replacement is going to be (and I understand that it’s simply throwing names out there for discussion) because I know that analysis, due dilligence, communication, and proper evaluation techniques will be put into place. This will allow the administration to emerge w/ the best candidate……one that I don’t believe will necessarily have West Virginia roots.
I can't disagree with any of that.
Dang, what is happening here?!?!
by Country Roads on Oct 25, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Hear, hear...
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
The Apocalypse
must be near….
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
this was your
best laid out and thought out post to date. Not that I’m any kind of qualified judge or anything. Nicely done and I can’t argue with any of it.
I disagree with some of your first paragraph.
I’ve been waiting for this moment for 3 years now and I’m not a lesser fan for wanting it.
To me that means you wanted WVU and HCBS to fail. Whether you love or hate a coach, you should always want them to succeed.
You will soon realize that short term sacrifice will be tolerated at the expense of long term health/viability of the football program. It is normal to feel the way you all are right now.
I can’t speak for CR, but that was the point I was trying to make about giving HCBS and his staff time. I tolerated the short term struggles because I saw they could lead to long term success. I think it all goes back to your feelings of the initial hire and tolerance level.
I was not super excited about HCBS being hired. However, I was willing to give him time and tolerate the inadequacies we all saw with our offensive production. If we do not win out and ADOL decides to move in another direction. We should support the new coach, more than we supported HCBS at the start of his regime.
After that slight disagrement, I agree with the remainder of your comment.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Oct 25, 2010 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I should have said this
instead of agreeing with all of it. It was just so well written, that I missed that part
Just read your post
I agree with 5th Year Senior. Your first sentence is what bothers me about you and others. Whether you agree or not, sitting there wishing for this to happen is absolutely the wrong thing.
That bothers me, and that should bother a lot of people. Fans, have the right to boo, to gripe, to complain, but to openly be excited about a bad loss, hoping that it ends YOUR frustration, to me is ridiculous.
Now that said, if there is a change, I hope that O. Luck can find the right candidate that can stay with WVU for a while and bring a National Championship. But when that happens, how short is the leash with the new guy? And how long does he get the benefit of the doubt because the players aren’t “his type of players to fit his program”?
A friend of mine, who is a PSU fan, asked me last night this question. “What is wrong with the fans at WVU. Every team has a really bad day, a bad loss, etc… It seems to me that as much as people want to support the team, they want to hate the coach. It’s like no matter what he does, in the eyes of the fanbase he can’t do anything right.” I hope that is just the perception of one and not across that country, as that will start having a negative impact on the program as well.
All in all, Columbus, you make a lot of valid points.
by BurghMountaineer on Oct 26, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
But HOW is it the wrong thing to do
when I KNEW that it was going to come to this. I see his resume (or lack thereof), the fact that WVU hired him immediately after an emotional win (and to many fans “sticking” it to Rodriguez).
That is like stating that I should just sit and deal w/ the inevitable. To me, there was never a question of whether Stewart would succeed or not succeed. I looked at past experience, resume, fact that he was never a candidate prior to the game, etc. and knew that he wouldn’t do it.
It seems to me that you and 5ys may be a bit bitter because you weren’t able to tell that this was going to happen, when it was very clear to a large percentage of the fan base…….many more realized it after the first game he ever coached (not counting DIII opponent).
I actually think he has improved over the 3 years and believe that we’re able to consistently go 8-4, which in college football and in the Big East Conference is like being under .500.
by WVUColumbus on Oct 26, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
It's wrong because it has a negative premise
Whether or not you “knew” it was going to happen is irrelevant. The fact that you said
I’ve been waiting for this moment for 3 years nowsuggests that you would have never been satisfied even if we were currently 7-0 and dominant. This attitude suggests that it didn’t matter if Stew proved you wrong because there is no way he could have succeeded in your mind. The decision had already been made even before you had any evidence (aside from your examining of Stew’s resume).
It’s like this: If you are planning on going to a party and you’ve already decided that it’s going to suck, it doesn’t matter if there are 10 naked Swedish models serving you Jaegar on an ice luge (or whatever fantasy you have) you are going to alway think that the party sucked. Why? Because attitude means a lot more than you think.
So while you are certainly entitled to your pessimistic attitude and your naysaying, I’m not sure it’s helpful because as far as I know RR had no D1 coaching experience when he started and he did alright. Everyone needs a shot at some point, Stew got his, the opinion is still out but is teetering on the brink.
"Thus, it is with those nurtured in Appalachia—they leave, but they look back, remembering pleasant things. The land has claimed them, and its ties will not be severed." --Maurice Brooks
Dr. Charley West, Please don't block me if I have typos or poor grammar.
by Oregon Mountaineer on Oct 26, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Incredibly well said.
Wholeheartedly agree, Oregon. Love your perspective.
by Country Roads on Oct 26, 2010 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions
You wanted WVU to fail. As a WVU fan, that is always the wrong thing to do.
You should always cheer for the Mountaineers. No matter what. You can complain and criticize after the game, but while it is being played, you should cheer for YOUR team. If you are able to cheer against a team, you may not want to call them your team.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Oct 26, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Completely disagree w/ your outdated way of thinking
Let’s just admit that my goal for WVU is to win a national championship (maybe that’s not your goal…..maybe your goal is to get inebriated/party every weekend watching the Mountaineers along w/ friends and family…..which is absolutely fine…..and if they go 8-4 then great because then you can take the party on the road for a decent bowl game).
In my mind, I think it’s important to get the program to the level of MY expectations, not yours….and I want the program to have the same expectations of mine…just as you want the program to have the same expectations as yours. Does that make sense?
Therefore, I want the program to fail under Bill Stewart as soon as possible because I don’t believe there will EVER be a time when we legitimately are within reach of my goal (not your goal). Your argument will undoubtedly be the following: “Yeah, but you’ve been against him since the hire”….My response: You’re absolutely right and my concerns were validated the first two games of his first season. There has never been anything that suggests that he and his staff could get us back to at least the semi-finals (like RRod) let alone win the NC.
I never wanted WVU to fail. I just knew it couldn’t succeed w/ Bill Stewart leading the program. In my opinion, the quicker he is released from the program, the quicker the healing time for the WVU football program and the infinitely better the program will become, with leaders such as Oliver Luck and James Clements in operations.
If I remember, 5YS is a Cowboys fan??? I’m a Steelers fan. Unlike your NFL team, I am accustomed to a way of management (Rooney family) that has demonstrated a process of making good decisions/hires. Unlike many of the posters, I feel WVU is a big enough program that Clements/Luck will be just as able to select a great candidate to lead the football team. (Also, think of Minnesota Twins since you’re a b-ball fan….small market, managed well, great scouting dept, etc.)
Sorry I'm not in vogue with my way of thinking.
Just so we are clear, I want WVU to win the national championship every year. My goal is national championship every year. However, I look at things realistically and understand that most likely won’t happen. Which means, if a coach does not win a championship in a given year, I do not want to fire that coach. Also, I go to every home game to cheer loudly and help my team. Drinking and tailgating is secondary.
Now that we got that out of the way, let’s move on.
This may just be a result of my pee brain not fully comprehending your rational, but your comment does not seem consistent in my book.
Therefore, I want the program to fail under Bill Stewart as soon as possible
You’re saying you want to WVU to fail. Does not work for me, but you can think what you want.
I never wanted WVU to fail.
Wait, what? I thought you said you wanted us to fail?
I won’t subscribe to your new age I’m taking my ball and going home way of thinking if I don’t get the coach I want. Hell, I wanted Terry Bowden, HE WEARS A TIE.
I am going to continue to stay outdated and backwoods if that means I root for my team every game.
Again, my thoughts are held back by my lack of intelligence. Please forgive me.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Oct 26, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
actually
I should have stated that I don’t want WVU to be a failure long term, but I am willing for some short term heartaches to insure that Coach Stewart is dismissed as soon as possible.
The difference is, you never hoped to be wrong.
by Country Roads on Oct 26, 2010 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
"Thus, it is with those nurtured in Appalachia—they leave, but they look back, remembering pleasant things. The land has claimed them, and its ties will not be severed." --Maurice Brooks
Dr. Charley West, Please don't block me if I have typos or poor grammar.
by Oregon Mountaineer on Oct 27, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Steelers - Cowboys analogy
I too am a Steelers fan, and when discussing the management, you are forgetting something so big and constantly repeated about the Steelers.
The Steelers have had only 3 head coaches since 1969. Think about that. Now, what does that say about Steelers Management? It says that they stick with a coach and let them have a down year or two, and don’t want to can them if they lose a game they believe should have been won.
Case in point, Steelers 1998-2000, they could have easily 1) fired Cowher, 2) not exteneded his contract. But they stayed with him, and gave him the extension, and look how that turned out.
I’ll add this, I’m a Lakers fan. Honestly, I couldn’t stand the hiring of Phil Jackson. I knew it was a good hiring, but I just don’t like the guy. To this day, I’m still not a Phil Jackson fan, but I respect the guy and what he does, and because they are my team I follow them and cheer for them. I don’t wish him to have a bad season so they can fire him. Anyone who does that should have their status as a fan questioned.
by BurghMountaineer on Oct 27, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Come on!
everyone knows it supposed to be WAR (wins above replacement). This stat is much harder to quantify over a 12 game season, as compared to a 162 game season.
I spent 10 minutes Saturday...
…contemplating that very topic. I decided that VORP was much more known than WAR and since it was a made up metric anyway, I went with VORC. Plus, VORC sounds cool.
by Dr. Charley West on Oct 25, 2010 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Nothin' huh!
Lecti Exurendo Sunt!
(Couches Must Burn!)
by MtnEer_in_SC on Oct 25, 2010 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
How About the Want-o-Meter?
My metric is simple: What FBS school would hire (everyone is assumed to be looking) HCBS as HC should he become available? Divide the number of positive answers by the number of FCS schools to get his desirability factor. Bill has takent this program for a Top 10 program he inherited to a rarely top 25 program. Perhaps VMI would have him back……I doubt it though.
I do not think we were ever a Top 10 "program"
We were a Top 10 team, but not a Top 10 program.
If we continued to win at the same clip as Fraud did and develop our facilities further, we would have become a top 10 program. I would say we are still a Top 25 “program.” However, we are not a top 25 team right now.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Oct 26, 2010 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I have to go with 5YS on this
There is a lot of competition out there for the designation of a Top 10 Program.
If you are changing your offensive system to get ready for someone’s graduation you’re not a Top 10 Program. Top 10 Programs recruit the kids they need to fill those slots. It’s the old “reload vs rebuild” cliche, but it’s true.
Had Rodriguez stayed and we we continued to win at 10 to 12 games a year we might have become a Top 10 Program in a couple more years.
Lecti Exurendo Sunt!
(Couches Must Burn!)
by MtnEer_in_SC on Oct 26, 2010 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions
Changing an offensive system to prepare for someone’s graduation…..this is the single dumbest thing Bill Stewart ever propogated on WVU fans.
Let’s take a look at this -
1. Supposedly, once Pat White graduated, we would have needed to change the system because we couldn’t run any more. (i will fistfight anyone who actually believes this, but let’s just pretend it’s true.)
2. It was going to take a year or two transition from the old offense to a new offense.
3. if it is going to take a year or two anyway, why in the name of all that is holy would you change it while he’s still there? if he was cut out for the option, why not wait for another qb to come in that is more adept to the kind of offense you want to change it to? if you’re going to lose 2 transition years anyway, why not have one last good year with the old offense before you change it? under this logic, why not change it after his freshman year, why not after his sophomore year? i mean he’s going to be gone eventually, right, let’s get an even bigger head start?
it is the most illogical thing ever conceived. pat white was awesome at the triple option. we believed AFTER he left, that would be a problem to run it withough him. so instead of changing it, AFTER he left, we changed BEFORE he left. so not only do we have to go through 2 years of transition, but we have to waste the senior season of pat white.
Yeah, I hated that we wasted Pat's final year too.
But I never believed we were going away from the zone-read spread and shred because PW was leaving. I always knew in the bottom of my black and greasy heart it was because the new OC (and possibly the HC) didn’t have a clue as to how to run it.
Lecti Exurendo Sunt!
(Couches Must Burn!)
by MtnEer_in_SC on Oct 26, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't know if I fully understand what you are saying.
A new coach should run the old system until all the players from that system graduate?
New coach, new system right?
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Oct 26, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Two coaches that said, "My team, my system"
Fraud 2001
Beilein 2003-2004
Again, I’m not sure the exact point of your above post.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Oct 26, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
After Rich’s first year, he switched to a complete spread option offense because that is the personel he had. Until that point, he was a pass first coach.
Should the 1998 Chicago Bulls have abandoned the triangle because they knew the Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan wouldn’t be back in 1999?
Should the 1995 Nebraska Cornhuskers have scrapped the option because Tommy Frazier wouldn’t be back the next year, and their one dimensional offense wouldn’t work with Brook Berringer?
And to that point, should Tom Osbourne have changed his option offense because Nebraska was shut down at least once a season his first 20 years as coach?
You're right except...
Rod was not a past first coach.
That is why Woodrow Danztler at Clemson and Shaun King at Tulane were team leaders in rushing. Granted King threw more than Danztler but for the RR system to work it needed a QB that could FIRST run then when called upon throw it adequately.
"Thus, it is with those nurtured in Appalachia—they leave, but they look back, remembering pleasant things. The land has claimed them, and its ties will not be severed." --Maurice Brooks
Dr. Charley West, Please don't block me if I have typos or poor grammar.
by Oregon Mountaineer on Oct 26, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
New coach, new system
He is not tied to the system of the previous administration. Stew was our coach, not Fraud.
Did Phil Jackson continue to run Doug Collins offense?
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Oct 26, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
You Are Correct
I used “program” when I should have used “team”, thank you for the correction. Had we hired Dan Mullens as HC instead of Stew/Jeff Mullen, we would be closer to a Top 10 Program than we are currently and would definitely be a top 25 team.
Dan Mullen.
Apparently, if you’re going to be a college football coach, you lack the “s” on the end of your name.
by Dr. Charley West on Oct 26, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
"Thus, it is with those nurtured in Appalachia—they leave, but they look back, remembering pleasant things. The land has claimed them, and its ties will not be severed." --Maurice Brooks
Dr. Charley West, Please don't block me if I have typos or poor grammar.
by Oregon Mountaineer on Oct 26, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Schwartzwalder Trophy
Does losing the Schwartzwalder Trophy get you any extra debit ?
ps….. HCBS has been an assistant for about 27 years for a reason….
because he was good at his job
and he got fired for using a racial slur, even though he didn’t mean it in a demeaning way
Players who should be in the Hall of Fame: Pat TIllman, Dwight White, Donnie Shell, L.C. Greenwood, Ray Guy, Steve Tasker, Jack Butler, Greg Llyod, Andy Russel, Cris Carter, Kevin Greene and Jerry Kramer
"Its too bad that NHL is taken because the National Football League has become the National Hypocrite League" Mark Schlereth
Canal Street Chronicles resident Steelers Fan
by WVPiratesfan on Oct 26, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I've never heard a racial slur that was not meant in a demeaning way...
The fact that Rod offered everyone on the staff but Stew has to say something about the man’s coaching prowess. If you don’t think that does, how about the drop off on special teams when he appointed himself ST Coach? Some on this site have said that he is an “intelligent man”, but I respectfully disagree. I’ve never seen or heard anything that makes him look or sound intelligent. Just poor decisions and colloquial/informal speech that help to feed the stereotype that we already live with as West Virginians. It is not “breaking news” that our offensive scheme (or lack of) is not working. It has been the same for 2.5 seasons. An “intelligent” head coach would have made a change at the end of last season and certainly would have chosen his words better back at VMI if he “only had good intentions”. It is time to show Bill Stewart the door.
not to start an argument, maybe my memory isn't clear
But I thought I remembered there being a statement that everyone on RR’s staff was offered the opportunity to follow him, including BS. The only place I’ve ever read otherwise has been on message boards by common posters and comments on our site.
Does anyone have any way to verify this, either way?
I thought
that Stewart wasn’t offered, because there were many that stated if he was he possibly would’ve jumped.
No offense meant, but
this is exactly what I’m referring to. Everyone seems to think it’s true but I’m pretty sure it’s not.
He was offered and said no.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Oct 26, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
i don’t think he was ever offered. and im 99% nothing definitive was ever written on the subject. my understanding is that rodriguez intended to bring his entire staff to michigan but since stewart was given the head coahing job here, he obviously wasn’t giong to go to michigan so there was no use in asking him to come, but before he was given the job, it was understood a spot would be available to him in ann arbor.
either way
I’m not defending him for the on field product anymore, but I’m sick of this kind of dis-information being propagated as a reason for non-qualification
Semantics
He had a job at Michigan if he wanted it, that I know.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Oct 27, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Casazza responded to an email I sent with this:
Here’s what I [Casazza, ed.] wrote the morning after Rodriguez left:
“A team source said Magee and Gibson will join Rodriguez’s staff in Ann Arbor,
Mich., where Rodriguez was introduced this morning at a press conference. The
source said Rodriguez is also interested in retaining defensive
coordinator/linebackers coach Jeff Casteel, safeties coach Bruce Tall,
associate head coach/special teams coordinator/tight ends coach Bill Stewart
and strength and conditioning coordinator Mike Barwis.”
My source was cooler
No offense Mr. Casazza
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Oct 27, 2010 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I just wish he had offered
to split some of his salary reduction with Calvin McGee instead of hiring Jeff Mullen.
Hey Oliver Luck, I absolutely hate that WVU is "the winningest college football team to have never won a National Championship". You think you could do something about that?
by MtnEer_in_SC on Oct 27, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
This is another point I've never understood
Calvin made his bed when he got on the plane for the introduction presser, past the proverbial “point of no return”
Agreed
I admit that I was shocked he was even allowed to coach in the bowl game.
by BurghMountaineer on Oct 27, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Out here in the Govt contractor world
we have people job-hopping back and forth between companies all the time. There is no such thing as “point of no return” unless you just absolutely nuke that bridge behind you by cussing out the owner, sleeping with his wife, or something even more low-down, giving insider info to the competition.
My main point was I would sure love to have had Calvin as our OC the past two years. I think we would have gone 11-2 in 2008 and 10-3 last year.
Hey Oliver Luck, I absolutely hate that WVU is "the winningest college football team to have never won a National Championship". You think you could do something about that?
by MtnEer_in_SC on Oct 27, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I was very concerned about the kind of respect Stewart had amongst his peers when Rod Smith turned downt he O-Cordinator position to instead be QB coach at Michigan. Granted, he had left his job as O-Co at USF to be QB coach at WVU, and he is a Rodriguez guy, but I would have thought he would have wanted that job.
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