To Rodriguez Or Not: A Seemingly Difficult Question With An Easy Answer
by Dr. Charley West on Dec 8, 2009 3:35 PM EST
in Yes, We Still Talk About Rich
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PrintCFN's Matthew Zemek attempted to lay a great quandary at the feet of all Mountaineer fans earlier today in his Monday Morning QB article (note, I said attempted). Here is his question to us:
Listen up, Old Gold and Blue backers: Would you rather be winning 11 games with Rich Rodriguez, or maintaining your dignity and winning nine games with Bill Stewart? Integrity and humanity are supposed to matter more than results, at least within certain parameters. Keep that in mind as you continue along the path with Mr. Stewart.
Now, don't get me wrong, I had to think about this for a little bit. But the answer was actually pretty easy...
It's 11 games with Rich Rodriguez, hands-down. Here's why.
- Rich Rodriguez wasn't "The Product" or "Fraudriguez" until he left for Michigan. He was Rich Rodriguez, head coach of West Virginia University. Our school. Our coach. Sure, he had flirted with plenty of other schools, but we still loved in 2007, almost regardless of what he did the winter before with Alabama. He was still our coach. What came to light after the Michigan move didn't change how we felt about him until after he had left. As far as we knew, he wasn't cheating or breaking any major rules. He was just getting results. That's fine by me.
- The difference between winning 11 games and 9 games is pretty significant. With 9 games, you're sneaking into a New Year's Day bowl game every few years, but mostly, you're confined to the third tier of bowl games. You're certainly not going to be playing in many (if any) BCS games. With 11 games, you're a perennial BCS player and a national championship contender. You're a player on the national scene. When you win 9 games, even though its still a decent accomplishment, you're just not on everyone's radar.
- I don't think integrity and humanity really matter more than results. Sure, you have to have some of the aforementioned traits, but you also have to win. Bill Stewart is winning so far, but in Zemek's example, winning 9 games and being a great guy will always trump 11 games and being an asshole. I don't agree. It's not like Rodriguez was out killing hobos and street walkers on the weekends. He may not have been the greatest guy in the world, but when he's your coach, you don't quite see that big picture. You see him, on the sidelines, winning games for your university. I have used this example before, but to us at WVU, we see Lane Kiffin as "Lane Kiffin, douchebag." At Tennessee, they seem him as, "Lane Kiffin, head coach of the Volunteers." There's a big difference in perception when the jerk is on your sideline.
Now, before anyone takes this in another direction, let me clarify: I don't want Rich Rodriguez back at WVU under any circumstances. Once he left for Michigan, the metaphorical ship sailed on my perceptions of Rodriguez. He is forever "The Product" and "Fraudriguez" to me. But while he was still here, the situation was different. He was our coach.
So what is your answer to Zemek's question. Am I right, or just a heartless dick who doesn't care about the importance of "humanity and integrity?"
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It's a Silly Question
But I think stability of the program is most important. My 2007 self agrees with you 100%, but it’s not like someone else wasn’t going to try to hire him away if he hadn’t gone to UM. We would have played out the Alabama thing every year until someone else hired him or he wasn’t the “it” coach anymore. After too many years of that, I think our recruiting would have taken a hit.
I guess it’s a positive that no one is going to try to hire Stew away from us. As long as the nine and ten win seasons continue, our next coach will like what he sees and WV might not be a feeder school for coaches anymore.
I know you’re not a fan of Stew, but I’ve suffered through much worse with this program as I’m sure you have. It could be sooooooo much worse.
Is There An Echo In Here...?
Didn’t I ask 13 days ago if we would take him back? The answer was resoundingly “No!” from the few responses (none, however, came from The Nancies," whose responses were the ones I really wanted to see…maybe now they will respond). I was even accused of being a Marshall fan for posting such a question….
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
"I Don't Think Integrity and Humanity Matter More Than Results."
Really? Wow. I sure hope we are just talking football, here. But even if we are, I don’t agree.
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
To Answer The Last Question...
11 wins each year is unlikely, for every program. I have stated elsewhere….give me a guy who wins no fewer than 9 each season, with a shot at all the marbles every three or four go-rounds…I don’t think one should have to ask for much more than that.
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
That wasn't the question.
It didn’t say anything about the likelihood of one hypothetical actually being likely or not. The question was, Rodriguez and 11 wins or Stewart and 9. I take Rodriguez and 11.
by Dr. Charley West on Dec 8, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, But That Is Not Really A Fair Either/Or, Is It?
If that is all I get, I go Rod and 11 wins, because I do want us to win one. A better question might be would you go Rod and 11 wins five straight years with one title, or Bill with 9 wins for four straight years and undeafted and a title in the last? I would go with the latter…but, as you say, that is considering all the shit that happened, which resulted in our dim view of the Product.
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
National Championship
I’d take Marvin Graves reincarnated as coach if he had 5 winless season and 1 national championship.
I Agree...!
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
Do the ends justify the means?
The answer is no, while I would love to see WVU as a perennial BCS contender (I don’t think we’re that far off) I wouldn’t want it at the expense of a reputation like Miami circa Jimmy Johnson, or the Florida State Criminals.
When those types of criminal/character things came up with P-Rod, he handled them well (ie Chris Henry, Pacman), I think Stew has handled them well so far. I wouldn’t want us to get into a situation where we are recruiting “thugs” or “low character guys”, (see fear of Bob Huggins as Mountie Coach). I’m not saying we need choir boys but I would hate to have to justify my fan-dom to the joksters on the West Coast, who are always chirping about the Pac-10 and “east coast bias”, having read about another scandal.
I also would like to mention that I wish that Stew was a little more forceful and a little less sweet old man.
Could our coach be an asshole while keeping me as a fan? sure. Could he be low class? I doubt it.
Our reputation wasn't that bad when Rodriguez was here.
There are bad apples in every recruiting class, almost regardless of school and coach.
People have retroactively labled Rodriguez as a recruiter of thugs. While Henry and Pac Man were high profile problems (more so after they left WVU), we never had the reputation of Miami or FSU in the 80s/90s.
by Dr. Charley West on Dec 8, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think he was saying that...
When those types of criminal/character things came up with P-Rod, he handled them well
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Dec 8, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions
So then, there's no problem with Rodriguez and 11 wins, right?
I don’t see any, at least.
by Dr. Charley West on Dec 8, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
I'm in
the title speaks for itself
by Oregon Mountaineer on Dec 8, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Let me clarify
I wasn’t suggesting that we or Rod had a bad reputation when he was here. I agree with you on having an 11 win Rod over a 9 win Stew, but I was extrapolating a little when suggesting that I would rather have a “class” program perception ala Pete Carroll at USC (even if he does live with grad students) than the program perceptions of the Jimmy Johnson, mid 90s FSU
by Oregon Mountaineer on Dec 8, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions
With a very public appology, extreme graveling and another 4 million dollars….I would tell him and his family to go do anatomically unatural things to themselves. And I loved his offense.
Actually I would probably be a big enough person to forgive and let him back, but even those of us who could forgive couldn’t forget. It would never work. And it’s so hard for the right coach to be at the right program at the right time, I think we would all be dissapointed.
Really though, this could be a question of would you rather have John beilein or Bobby huggins. And I think we all know the answer to that.
by The 25314 on Dec 8, 2009 4:17 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Rich rod didn’t run a renegade program. Most of his players were really good kids. Pacman and Henry didn’t get into trouble until after they left. He was tough and a jerk in practice, but I like that. I have no problem with a coach like that, as long as the program is clean and he’s not abusing players.
Of course i’d rather win with a Bobby bowden, Joe pa or another “good” guy but I’d prefer to just win. I would take Nick saban in a heart beat.
by The 25314 on Dec 8, 2009 4:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Personal Fouls...
Am I mistaken…weren’t Henry and Jones suspended on multiple occasions for play on the field (crossing their arms in celebration…I don’t want to argue whether or not that was legitimate or not just that it happened) and off the field?
by Oregon Mountaineer on Dec 8, 2009 4:26 PM EST up reply actions
For every
Chris Henry and Pac-Man, there’s a Pat White and Steve Slaton…..
To those that argue Rod ran a “Miami-esque” renegade program? Go find another argument as that wasn’t true.
BTW, I’m not a fan of Rodriguez and thought his time had come and went w/ the PITT loss. The problem is Stewart.
ARE YOU READING THE POSTS!
I said I did NOT think Rod ran a ‘renegade’ program nor did I assume that he would nor did I intimate that he recruited ‘thugs’. I simply took the argument of winning at all costs to its logical conclusion making it clear that I don’t think the ends justify the means.
Rod ran a fine program, but I wouldn’t want us to become a “Miami-esque” program regardless of who was running it (see hear my fears about Huggins). Henry and Jones were the exception not the rule.
The problem is morons…I was challenging the ascertain that “Pacman and Henry didn’t get into trouble until after they left” because while they did get into MORE trouble after they left, they certainly got into trouble while they were here and I thought “When those types of criminal/character things came up with P-Rod, he handled them well (ie Chris Henry, Pacman)”
by Oregon Mountaineer on Dec 8, 2009 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
That is a big problem.
Some people read but only see what they want to see.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Dec 8, 2009 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
Let me get this straight.
You wanted Rod out after the Pitt loss? If that’s true, what in the world is it going to take for you to be satisfied with a coach?
by Country Roads on Dec 8, 2009 8:20 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with you country roads. Wanting to fire rich rod for losing to Pitt didn’t and doesn’t make sense.
by The 25314 on Dec 8, 2009 8:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You really wanted him fired?
I think the problem could be your impossible standards.
You think a team will go 6-6 but when they beat that mark by 3 games, you are still pissed off. We lose one really tough game and you want to fire a coach. That is not the way to build a program. Everybody takes a bad loss now and then.
If you fired a coach every time he took a tough beat your progam would suck.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Dec 8, 2009 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
3,9,8,8,3,6
Those are RichRod’s win totals without Pat White and Steve Slaton, I’m just sayin…
Completely discount the last 3 and 6
That’s at another program that he’s rebuilding. Completely useless to this argument.
And it’s not even an argument about whether Rodriguez could win 11 games or not.
Lastly, Rodriguez recruited Pat White and Steve Slaton. Doesn’t matter how they came to be at WVU or how they earned their starting jobs, they were Rodriguez recruits. He deserves the credit for his record with them.
by Dr. Charley West on Dec 8, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions
Wow, I cannot keep up with all the action
He gets credit but those other numbers point to a Marshall, ala Leftwhich/Pennington, rather than a major winner.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Dec 8, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
I doubt that.
Rodriguez is completely overhauling Michigan. I believe he’ll be just fine next year. Marshall was a small program that caught lightning in a bottle. Rodriguez at West Virginia was more than that.
by Dr. Charley West on Dec 8, 2009 4:31 PM EST up reply actions
Totally Disagree
Those werent a bunch of losers Rod inherited at Michigan. That awful defense he’s been throwing out there for two years is packed with former blue-chip recruits. The fact that their defense has been terrible is all on him. Period.
He did Bring in White and Slaton
And I’m sure he could do it again, but I’m just saying that his presence doesn’t automatically mean 11 wins. It means 8-9 wins unless he hits a home run recruiting, then it means 11 wins.
With that said- I’d take Rod over Stewart in a minute.
South...
You and me, both, brother…we’ve talked about it.
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
Well
if you want to make the pat white argument, you have to mention rod won 11 games a year with white, stew only 9. Stew also won 9 with brown. Is brown as good as white?
Also, rod won 8-9 games a year with Rasheed, who I was not impressed with : the same amoun of games you are happy about winning now. Rod coached Jed drenning, scott Otis, Shaun king, Woodrow danztler, Rasheed, pat white. All very good qbs. Did he luck into all of them? Also, Jarrett brown looked 10 times better as a freshman against rutgers than he did as a senior.
Pat white was a trancending type player. But like pittsnogle under beilein, white was perfect for rods offense. I don’t hear alot o people saying beilein lucked into pittsnogle ECM though he was a catlett recruit. The coaches maximized the unique talents of their player in ways almost no other coach could have.
by The 25314 on Dec 8, 2009 4:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Good Points...
…but Rod’s evaluation of talent does have to be questioned. After we saw Pat, we all wondered why Bednarik was starting. I don’t think you can say that Rod was any good at maximizing what was in the cupboard when he arrived…he was 3-8 with us and 3-9 at Michigan. He is a system guy, and his teams aren’t good until he has had time to inculcate his system. I, like Charley, think he will win and win big at Michigan if they give him enough time. Unfortunately, or fortunately (depending on your view of him) I don’t know if one more year is enough in Ann Arbor.
And It’s not apples to apples Rod with White vs. Stew with White, because transition usually costs you some wins…and usually more than just two.
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
You make some good points
But I guess what I’m saying is that we tend to choose to forget the failures of the guys we like and not for the guy we hate.
Brown is nowhere near as good as White, and if you really look at the 06 Rutgurs game, Brown was good, not great. He then proceeded to not get a bit better during two more years of Rod’s coaching.
And Would We Say...
…that JB looked good in the 07 USF loss…I mean, I hate to be hard on a kid, but I think he just hasn’t fulfilled our expectations. No doubt, they were too high.
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
ggbolt16 and Oregon Mountaineer
These guys are the same person…they didn’t understand the whole “pick a cool name” culture on this whole SBNation thing. that is all.
by Oregon Mountaineer on Dec 8, 2009 4:28 PM EST reply actions
The answer is YES!
The bottom line is Rich Rod was (and is) an innovator. Remember when other schools were coming to watch his practices to learn the spread? Is anybody coming to watch Stu’s innovative approaches? Are any other schools trying to court Stu away from WVU? Stu is nothing but a nice guy, not a great coach. Lombardi was a known bastard but they still named the NFL Championship Trophy after him. What most, if not all, of you don’t realize is that RR did NOT want to leave WVU but he had enough and I don’t blame him. Prior to the 2007 Pitt game he had a agreement with Garrison for a pay raise for his staff – the lowest paid assistants of any top 10 college team (at the time). Then they lost the Pitt game. Joe Manchin calls Garrison and threatens to pull state funding if any money is given to the football program after the monumental meltdown – letting a National Championship slip away. Yes, the Governor – a man you would think has more important things to do with a state almost last in every economic category. So RR said “screw this” and left. I don’t blame him. He has a responsibility to his staff. He wanted control of the football program the same as any other preemintent coach and they would not give it to him. He was bringing in millions of dollars every year – give it to him. Myopic. WVU should take him back in a minute. And I bet he’d come back under the right conditions. While Stu seems like a great guy, I’m not ready to slip back into the Nehlen era. I liked winning the Big East every year. I liked beating SEC champs in bowl games. Those days are gone – yes, I know you’ll argue that considering the recruits we’ve gotten but consider this… RR did not NEED blue chip recruits to turn WVU into a preeminent power. Maryland passed over Slaton. Nobody wanted to let Pat White QB. RR did all that. To Rodriguez or Not? Definitely.
Let's not get back into that argument.
I don’t care why he left, at least not anymore. That’s not what this debate is all about.
by Dr. Charley West on Dec 8, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
Not being a dick just stopping the convo from going in the wrong direction.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Dec 8, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
And with that convo...
…it can go in a very bad direction very quickly.
by Dr. Charley West on Dec 8, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
I Don't Care Why He Left...
but he left. I loved the guy while he was here. But who leaves their alma mater? I agree very little with Colin Cowherd, but I heard him say something the other day: Too many coaches seem to try to be happier than happy. And you can’t be. (Take note: Brian Kelly!)
If it were possible…if his agent called us up and pitched it just the way I paraphrased in my previous post…I would think really hard about it. Plenty of people have married their divorced spouses a second time! But then…they usually get divorced again…so, shit, I don’t know….I am sticking Stewart and hoping he rewards my loyalty in the next three seasons. And if he doesn’t, I hope he sticks to his word at his announcement press conference and steps down if he is not getting the job done. The plain truth is he has been there two years, and we have not regressed.
Next year will require a BCS trip, and at least a couple pretty wins, for the season to be a success, right?
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
No he doesn't.
He wants to do better and if you give him time, he will. Example: He improved from year one to year two.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Dec 8, 2009 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
That "We're 9-3!" speech gives me doubts.
Yes, he improved, but it sure made it sound like 9-3 was perfectly fine for him. I would never say it’s bad, because it’s not, but he sure seemed perfectly contented with 9-3 and his four bad quarters all season.
by Dr. Charley West on Dec 9, 2009 7:08 AM EST up reply actions
My perspective...
First, I love Zemek but he asks a silly questions here. I would take Fraud and 11 wins EVERY year. Rich may have turned into a dick after the fact but if would’ve stayed and won 11 games a year I would take that over nine wins EVERY year. He did a lot of good things for our program.
Second, we need to stop pretending that Stew has not won at WVU. Eight wins in his first season and an improvement to nine in his second, is a step in the right direction. Stop acting as if he just won 3 games the past two years.
Third, I have a meeting so my thoughts will not be complete. Just know that if the choice was Stew and 11 wins a year and Fraud and 11 wins a year I would pick Stew.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
I think I could get behind that choice
Honestly I don’t really care who the coach is as long as he doesn’t embarrass me or the state and he (or she for that matter) wins!
by Oregon Mountaineer on Dec 8, 2009 5:26 PM EST up reply actions
I Drive A Lot...You Enema
Whatever. OK…you go be a champion!
Perhaps I am stupid, because I have to keep the learning the same lesson over and over…like this one: permanently ignore some people. Life is annoying enough!
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
You have quite the vocabulary and spend more time on the computer than most truck drivers I know. Which would be none. It’s hard to meet people in my ivory tower.
by The 25314 on Dec 8, 2009 5:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Truck Driver?
Yeah…I am a lothario of the lot lizards….! Perhaps we should start comparing bank accounts, the relative hotness of our wives…
I continually comment on your posts? You wish. I find most of your stuff beneath comment. The Zip…on the other hand. 5 yard penalty for piling on! Truck driver dig made me chuckle…I sometimes wish I were in that profession…my driving is related to where all the different kinds of mines in this nation are located…and I do have an excellent vocabulary…it is how I put those non-job-getting degrees in literature and philosophy to use!
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
My dad could beat up everybody’s dad on here.
by The 25314 on Dec 8, 2009 8:29 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Chuckle...
…I don’t know…my Dad was a badass. But he’s old now, thank God! Too bad I am too…
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
I'm a bastard, so I don't know if my dad could beat anyone up.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Dec 8, 2009 11:57 PM EST up reply actions
That better be an attempt at humor.
And if it is, bravo, kind of funny. But if it’s not……
by Dr. Charley West on Dec 8, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
My take
I’ll take 11 wins over 9 wins any year.
When Rodriguez was winning 11 games a year, the program was in good shape, coaches from all over the country were coming to get educated on the offensive system, and any criminal problems they had weren’t any more outrageous that at other high profile schools. If he was somewhat of a dick, as was alleged when he left, I was OK with that.
If Stew can get to that plateau every so often, let’s keep him. If 9 wins a year is his top production after 5 years, let’s see if we can find someone better.
We would not win 11 games with Rodriguez, not by far. Not with our oline, not with our fumble prone QB who isn’t nearly as fast as Pat White, not with his inability to adjust once someone has stopped his scheme.
We likely wouldn’t have even made it to the bowl that we’re in now. Jeff Mullen’s play calling sucks at times, Stewart’s decision making makes us scratch our heads, but their system gives us a better chance to win with the personnel that we have.
Quality Response
I agree.
For me, I don’t take Rod back, period. I was perfectly happy the way things were before, so ASSUMING that Rod wins 11 games every single year and Stew wins 9 games every single year (which, everyone has to admit, are preposterous assumptions), I’d take Rod in a minute. I just don’t think there is a large enough sample to make a judgment at this point. Yes, I’d like to see more from Stew, but I don’t think he’s proven yet that he is incapable of the job.
by Country Roads on Dec 8, 2009 8:33 PM EST up reply actions
Knowing what we know now about Rich, I’d take the 9 wins over his 11?
Why you ask?
Because of the reasons he gave for leaving our program.
The book program? (like the one that recently got Saban in trouble)
The website control? (like the newsletter that sunk Fran in college station)
His current practicegate scandal?
Notice a trend? It would be a matter of time before the NCAA would come snooping, and unlike those three schools I’m not sure if we have the pull to get a slap on the wrist for his transgressions.
Rich is a cancer to any program where he’s given enough authority. From the type of kid he is willing to take, to an offensive system that everyone seems to have caught up to, to his recruiting that often leaves the defense with his skill position leftovers, to his lack of character. Sooner or later he would’ve destroy our program and skipped town.
That Is Really An Excellent Response...
I hadn’t really looked at it that way. Good point.
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
And how has everyone figured out his system?you know michigans offense Is ranked ahead of ours right? How do we complain about the greatest sustained offensive success in our history because we lost to Pitt but turn our eyes from the monstrocity mullen has rum out there for the last 7 games (or 25).
by The 25314 on Dec 8, 2009 11:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
If we are going to claim usf figured rod out because we only score 19 and 13 points against them his last two years, how do we not also say they figured mullen out when he scored….13 and 19 against them the last two years?
If we are going to claim Pitt figured rod out because they held us to 9 in 07, how do we not also claim Pitt figured mullen out because we score 15 and 19 the past 2 years?
Most likely because we held the old offense to such a high standard because they averaged 40 a game. Now we average 26 (and 19 the last 7 games) and all of a sudden 19 points isn’t an offense being figured out, it’s any number of others reasons people assert.
by The 25314 on Dec 8, 2009 11:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
We Must Be Posting Simultaneously Here....
I think Mullen’s offense has been figured out, because we aren’t doing anything that enables it to succeed. Throw down field. Go power. Hell, go misdirection. But, as I have said earlier in this thread, I don’t know all the details. It just may be that Mullen doesn’t trust JB enough to take certain risks, and the defense has been good enough these last two to get by with a 19 and 14 offensive points. I will say, also…that these were two decent defenses….
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
I Was Agreeing With...
…the points made about the books, the website, and the practicegate….
…I have thought over the last few games that your point about fixing something that wasn’t broken is right-on. We did learn to throw more down the field…but we don’t do that now, either. All of our plays seem to develop behind the line which I think is a real problem, because without a center-of-the-field presence, the DBs are not going backward when the ball is snapped. They are coming forward…and that is why we have so many plays that go for negative or no yardage, why we have so many three-and-outs, why our points per game has plummetted.
Our defense, much maligned through the year, but finally heatlhy at the end, won us these last two games, and I agree with my best friend, who suggested to me Saturday that Mullen owes Casteel a trip to Vegas, hookers included, for bailing him out.
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
For all the grief casteel takes, his defenses almost always give us a chance to win. And they always improve as the season goes along. People hate the 3-3-5, but, and people aren’t going to like this, I think it’s more a fear of the unknown than the fact the defensive scheme is flawed. I know no one else runs it, that it might be a gimmick, etc. but what was John beileins offense? What was the run and shoot in the 80s? What was the spread 15 years ago? Paul Johnson was supposed to fail at GT. Urban meyer brought the wing t back from the dead. Tony dungy’s Tampa two is actually a bend but don’t break defense. Personally, I like Outside the box thinking in coaching.
by The 25314 on Dec 8, 2009 11:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Mullen is like my high school girlfriend
She would take me to the basement and things would start to get a little saucy. Inevitably, however, she would stop before we got to the good stuff. I would be all worked up and have to drive home with blue balls. This happened time and time again and then one night she just rocked my world out of nowhere. IT WAS AWESOME and the last time I got laid but anyway. Then we went right back to blue ball central.
In his first season, Mullen showed some good things that got me pretty damn excited. In the end, I would normally end up disappointed. Then he showed some awesome play calling ability in the bowl game and I thought he finally turned the corner we are ready to kick ass. Then he goest back to getting us excited with some early game success only to zip up the pants and leave us all wanting more.
Damn you Jeff Mullen.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Dec 8, 2009 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
Hold on just a sec.
Why would our O-line be bad and why would our QB be fumble prone? None of those things were true when Rodriguez was here, why would they be true if he was still here?
by Dr. Charley West on Dec 8, 2009 9:01 PM EST up reply actions
What, if anything do you see being different about our personnel this year?
Do you think that we would’ve had anyone but JB under center? I don’t care who he recruited, you and I both know from the Bednarik/Pat White qb controversy that he wouldn’t start anyone but his experienced player. The problem is that after an entire season starting for us JB still doesn’t protect the football. In Rich’s offense where JB would be called on to use his feet much more often that would kill us.
Our offensive line is green everywhere, save for a converted TE at tackle. I don’t care what system we’re running they wouldn’t be opening holes for us like our previous lines. We were having issues to some degree in 2007.
The coaches would be different.
We had badass offensive lines under Rodriguez. In two years under Stewart, we’ve been awful.
(Yes, 2007 wasn’t exactly badass. I think it’s pretty clear we miss Trickett.)
by Dr. Charley West on Dec 9, 2009 7:11 AM EST up reply actions
I'd pick Bill Stewart
because then we don’t have to see that scary banshee Rita around the stadium.
Plus, I like Q-tip Motha’s comments and that stuff RR wanted to do that eventually got other coaches in trouble.
by BurghMountaineer on Dec 8, 2009 11:11 PM EST reply actions
Fuck Jimmy V Week...
….I Give Up!!! I leave it to you 5YS, South, C Roads…
Now is the time boys to make a big noise.
No matter what the people say,
For there is naught to fear, the gang's all here,
So hail West Virginia, hail.
This was the most rational discussion in comment history (minus that little pissing match)!
Almost everyone brought their A game, posted well thought out comments and responded to counterpoints. This is the type of discussion we should have more often. Having said that, screw everyone for not liking Stew.
Smilin Bill, you’re my BOY.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Dec 8, 2009 11:46 PM EST reply actions
integrity vs wins
there are so many thigns to consider here its not even funny. first i whole heartedly agree with the previous poster who cited the win totals before superman and patty boy. you cant base a coaches overall success on one phenomanal recruiting class that was the winingest ins school history. second program intergirty is based on violations or the apperance of violations. lane kiffin may be a coach, but hes not the kind of smack talking coach i want at wvu, maybe its just how i was brought up but you let the scoreboard anf the final record do the talking. between all of his minor violations, RR’s ongoing investigation at michigan, the dough boy in kansas, the pete carrol living with an intern saga at usc, i personally think we have made out pretty darn good. lets not forget that not long ago bobby patrino and nick saban were the toast of the ncaa, both went to the pros at the dorp of a hat and both came back to college at the drop of a hat, lying through thier teeth the entire time. are they good examples of great coaches? yep. are they the kind of coach i would want at WVU, hell no. if i can have a coach who puts togeather a fantastic play calling staff, but the head coach is a chill down to earth guy, thats the best of both worlds. our play calling needs to improve at the coordinator level, not the head coach level. he needs to hold his coordinators more accountable for thier actions. has the play calling improved from the previous year? yes, do i expect it to continue to improve? yes. in short i am more then happy with a 9 win season if the program continues to stay clean from the administration level.
" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009
by oldtimehockey09 on Dec 9, 2009 12:22 AM EST reply actions
THE VERDICT
I am traveling right now and took the opportunity to get the opinion of a completely neutral sample. Out of 100 Dutch, 98 said 11 wins are better than 9. The other two were so high that their answer was incoherent.
Our schedule was so easy this year that Dave Wanstache could have won 9 games. What’s that? The Stache won 9 games? Well, I guess that shows you how impressive 9 wins can be.
There were the UL and MU games that we won that felt like losses. So that tarnishes 9 wins as well.
And Bill Stewart is not Mr. Nice Guy like he was when he was first hired. If you listened to his call-in show or news conferences this year, then you know he has become defensive, confrontational, and divisive. And we haven’t had any fewer players arrested/suspended/in the news.
Perception:
Rod: in 2004 takes an 8th ranked pre-sesason team and finishes 9-4 after getting drilled in the gator bowl.
Stew: in 2008 takes an 8th ranked pre-season team and finishes 9-4 after winning the car bowl
One is a genius and the other an idiot?
I think the truth is somewhere in between.
Oh no you didn't
I have pointed that out before but everyone is going to come back with the “fact” that we played a “tougher” schedule. Even though we played more ranked teams this year and two of those teams were ranked in the Top 10.
Perception vs. Reality
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Dec 9, 2009 8:47 AM EST up reply actions
Actually, we played 2 ranked teams this year and 3 in 2004. But his comparison was with 2008 an 2004. We played zero ranked teams in 2008.
2004 was a MAJOR disappointment, but they weren’t coming off 3 straight 11 in seasons. They Didnt have pat white starting at qb or Noel devine at tailback (Rasheed and Kay jay). They didn’t return the entire offensive line. They were huge busts but not on the level of last years team.
Some more facts the poster above got wrong. 04 finished 8-4 a there was no 1-AA team on the schedule that year. Also 04 started 10, not 8. Really it’s not hard to remember, or at least look this stuff up before u start throwing #s around.
One final point about 04: like 08 and 09 the special reams were a disaster and cost us the BC and probably the FSU game. That’s what led to macafee and koz coming here.
by The 25314 on Dec 9, 2009 10:16 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
A few corrections.
First, I thought USF was ranked when we played them, I’m sorry. Also, I was not I was not including the bowl game. So we played the same amount but my main point was that we played 2 teams ranked in the top 10.
Second, some facts the above poster got wrong. In ’04 we played James Madison. It may just be me, but when a team is Division 1-AA and we beat them 45-10 in ’04, I think that counts as a game against a 1-AA team. Really, it is not that hard to remember or at least look this stuff up before you start throwing facts around.
Finally, in 08 we had a new coach and new offensive system. We all know last year’s team was way overrated considering all the change that occurred in the offseason. I don’t want argue all this again but I want to defend my boy Stew like you defend your boy Fraud.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Dec 9, 2009 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
Haha, I feel very embarassed about forgetting jmu and deserved to be called out on it.
But I disagree that last years team was overrated. Stew was hired to keep thing going. He didn’t. No one made him change the offense. That’s on him.
by The 25314 on Dec 9, 2009 1:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Not to continue this but...
Fraud did not need to change the offense either? I know we hired him because of his fast paced style but he did lose early. That is on him.
If Stew was brought in to keep up Fraud’s winning tradition then Stew should win 9 games a year. 8.71 wins a year was Fraud’s average.
Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.
by 5th Year Senior on Dec 9, 2009 2:29 PM EST up reply actions
We Will just go around in circles on this. Obviously, rich rod was completely chaging the offense top to bottom. Much different than tweaking. Rich rod had brad Lewis as his qb, not pat white. Rich rod was hired to change a program, not keep one going. Rich rod’s program hit it’s stride in the 5th year and stayed there.
When chris Peterson took over at Boise. He kept things going. Same for the guy at navy. Same for Larry coker.
Nick saban built LSU and when Les miles took over he kept it going. These program did not expect to be rebuilt once they had already been built.
If Stewart wins 11 games the next 3 years and then hands the reins to doc holliday are you going to expect holliday to tear down what Stewart built so he can install something different?
Frank Beamer won 2 games his first year. If bud foster takes over is he goin to get a pass if VT sucks his first year because Beamer sucked his first year? No. Beamer built it, it doesn’t need to be rebuilt. Same with stew. He doesn’t need 5 year because the building has already been done. Look what happened to Nebraska when they decided they needed to pass more an rebuild.
I just dont think you can compare rich rods andatewarts first years, they are cometely different situations.
And no, I don’t beleive rid needed to change his offense.
by The 25314 on Dec 9, 2009 3:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
2004 was a massive disappointment.
In 2005, Rodriguez took a freshman QB and RB and won the Sugar Bowl. Sure, their names were White and Slaton, but they were still freshmen.
In 2009, Stewart took a 5th year senior QB and snuck in the Gator Bowl. Not bad, but not quite like 2005.
by Dr. Charley West on Dec 9, 2009 9:13 AM EST up reply actions
SERIOUSLY??? After inheriting a lame team from Nehlen in 2001 and suffering a tough 1st year, Rod recruited and led the team to a higher level. In 2002 (initially unranked and finishing # 15). In 2003 (initially unranked and finishing #20). In 2004 Rod had Pac Man Jones and Chris Henry (two problem children), Boo McLee (ex-NFL), Eric Wicks (ex-NFL) and Rasheed Marshall (ex NFL), Kay Jay Harris (ex NFL) and several other decent players. In 2004, WVU lost to Va. Tech (#6) Boston College (#21) and Pitt (unranked)— then the bowl loss to FSU (#14 — knocking WVU out of the to 25). In 2005 (initially unranked and finishing 11 – 1 at # 11). WE ALL REMEMBER 2007. In 2008 (initially ranked No. 6 and finishing 11 – 2 at # 13) Stewie inherited Pat White (NFL), Noel Devine, Jock Sanders, Pat McAfee (NFL), Mortty Ivy (NFL), Quinton Andrews, Ellis Lankster (NFL), etc. In 2008, WVU lost to ECU (unranked) Colorado (unranked) Cincinati (unranked) and Pitt (# 25). Therein lies the difference. Stewie didn’t know wtf to do with talent. Don’t get me wrong, I’d much rather have Stewie as my next door neighbor than Dick Rod.
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