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The Smoking Musket Debates The Future of WVU Football

It's no small task to debate the future of a football program, but hungover this weekend and often unable to leave the couch, that's what 5th Year Senior and myself set out to do.  What started as angry text messages Friday night evolved into lots of back-and-forth e-mails Saturday, all beginning with one single question:

Charley West:

Is Stew the future?

Star-divide

5th Year Senior:

Will he be our coach in 20 years? No. Do I think we can win the same amount with him as we did under Fraud? Yes. Future is a touch word with an "older" coach these days.

I personally do not want to call for Stew's head while Pastilong is our AD. He would likely hand the job to Doc and I don't think he is the future either. What about Beatty or Lockwood?

Charley West:

Ick. Nothing against Beatty or Lockwood, but we should be a program above hiring more untested, lesser-known assistants.

Stew & Co. have done a fantastic job of recruiting during this "transition," which was certainly not guaranteed. It's not that I want to have Stew fired, either, it's just that I don't necessarily thing he's the long-term solution. So, what do we do? Well, your nightmare Holliday scenario certainly scares me. If we were able to score a Charlie Strong-level assistant, I think that would be perfect. But with Stew confident in his system, I don't see him even thinking about stepping aside.

5th Year Senior:

He said that he would step aside if he is not getting the job done and if we have a few more performances like last night it will that time real quick.

You talk about recruiting. Would we be able to keep the guys we have if we brought in somebody like Strong? This staff has been able to land talent we only dreamed of in years past. Strong and Doc worked together at Florida so it could be possible but highly unlikely.

Butch Jones has the Chipewas performing at a pretty high level too...

Charley West:

I think he would step aside if we went 2-10. I don't think he would step aside if we went 7-5. Stew is a stand-up guy, but everyone wants to keep their job, right? Especially a job as high profile and prestigious as this one.

And I love this staff's recruiting, but there's no one way to recruit. It's not like these guys have a monopoly on the ability to recruit to West Virginia. They've been very successful, but if you bring in the right guys, you can replicate this with a different staff.

As for Jones, I wouldn't be against him at all. He runs a high-powered offense, but how much of it is him coaching up Lefevour into a great QB and how much of it is the complete opposite? It was the Pat White argument we always heard about Rodriguez.

5th Year Senior:

I just hate even talking about replacing Stew at this point because our season is not a failure. We still control our own destiny for a BCS birth and could win out.

Anyway, I just hate how conservative he is at times. While Fraud was not the most aggressive coach of all time he was not afraid to go for it at certain places of the field. It does make me mad that pre-season he said from the 35 to the 25 would be 4 down territory and has not followed through with it.

Would you feel different this morning had Stew gone for it and not converted on 4th and 3, instead of punting?

Charley West:

No, I can respect good coaching moves that simply don't work. Not every play is going to work, but going for it on 4th and 3 from the opponent's 33 is a very easy call.

And sure, we could win out, but do you honestly expect us to? I certainly do not. Suddenly, games against both Cincinnati and Pitt seem like uphill climbs. I mean, both Cincinnati and Pitt destroyed USF, and they manhandled us. Not, not, not good.

Assume, for a moment, that we do lose those two games, but manage to win the others. We go 8-4 again, and with the bad bowl lineup this year, end up in St. Petersburg, or -- gasp -- Toronto. What happens this off-season?

5th Year Senior:

People would throw shit like monkey's in the cage at the zoo. 8-4 this year is not acceptable and would be a big disappointment. I do not think he should be fired after 8-4 this year but if he goes 8-4 in 2010, he should be fired.

I want him to succeed so badly because he is a great ambassador for the state and the program. If we did start to win, the national media would be in love with him because of his great down home personality. I just don't see us beating Cincy this year with out secondary. Pitt on the other hand, will always be a battle no matter the records of the teams.

What would take HCBS off the "hot-seat" for you? I would need a 10 win season.

Charley West:

It's not necessarily the win-loss record, it's how the wins and losses are happening. Wins aren't convincing other than the fact that they're wins.

On one hand, you have Huggins who wants to beat people by 1000. On the other, you have Stewart that is happy with beating people by one. In the end, fans gravitate towards the convincing wins, and even when things were going "well" this season, we haven't seen that. So, to answer your question, ten wins would certainly be OK in my book, but I want to see those ten wins be of high quality. I need to see a killer instinct from Stewart, and I'm not sure it's there. Because without it, I don't think ten wins is even a possibility.

Huggins is making it much tougher on Stew these days. The expectations are being raised just down the road, while they're apparently trying to be lowered at Mountaineer Field.

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The Future

The future is what this team needs to focus on. I saw flashes of brilliance from Geno Smith when Brown went out. To be honest, I went into the next game with that old excited feeling hoping Geno would remain playing. Reminded me of the Pat White scenerio. With a back like Tavon Austin and a QB like Geno…there are real possibilities for this team in the future. Jeff Mullen – please watch some of the 2005-2007 tapes and attempt to gain an understanding of the use of the option. The bubble screen does not work – after failing all year – it’s time to let that one go. The future is now. I know Stew is a good guy and feels like Brown deserves the chance to lead this team, but the simple fact is he is not going to develop fast enough to do it. Brown is a senior that plays like a freshman. He doesn’t get the reads and makes terrible decisions. Not enough time is the obvious reason, but he plays like a freshman and so does Geno Smith. Smith is the future – let’s watch him develop. Brown didn’t start over Pat White for one simple reason – White was better. Period. We don’t owe Brown a thing. Let’s think about our future and give us fans so hope and excitement to look forward to. Play Geno Smith. Option, option, option……..

by wvu96 on Nov 1, 2009 5:47 PM EST reply actions  

Why does everyone hate the bubble screen?

It is a low risk high reward play. Granted, we sometimes run it too much but every team in the nation and many NFL teams use the same fucking play. Get over it.

Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.

by 5th Year Senior on Nov 1, 2009 7:35 PM EST via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

Wow

I’ve been saying this for a couple years now. When called at the right time, or executed correctly at any time, it is a phenomenal play. It gets the ball in the hands of your playmakers immediately with time and space to create. Nobody seems to mind it when Sanders or Starks take it for a touchdown.

B-B-B-Byrd Byrd Byrd, Byrd is the Wyrd!"

by willgarr15 on Nov 2, 2009 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep

Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.

by 5th Year Senior on Nov 3, 2009 8:46 AM EST up reply actions  

on the future of hcbs

personally i dont think all these issues can fall directly at his feet. our secondary is terrible. how much of that falls at bills feet rather then the feet of the d coordinator guy whos name i cant spell. personally i think we have too many show boats on d and not enough team players. if you compare how our guys play d vs say oregon last night vs usc they were two different animals. yes o prolly has better athletes then us. but the fact is they were playing as a unit. sfaties were making good decisions on ver the top coverage, and corners new when to hand a guy off to a linebacker (who then picked up the zone coverage) and then said corner woudl return to his area if it got invaded by another wideout.

quite simply to me the blame falls on castill. if bs go’s, id rather him stay in the program has a scout/recruiter. the level of talent he has picked up is fantastic

" Lord Stanley, scratch thier names on your fabled cup" Mike Lange june 12, 2009

by oldtimehockey09 on Nov 1, 2009 6:36 PM EST reply actions  

Charlie West is exactly right

When HCBS says, i.e. on last week’s walk-through with Caridi and finished the conversation with hopefully we can “squeak” through a win. Damn! That drives me crazy! That’s thinking like showing up in a Volkswagen with straws and spit balls when he should be indicating we are the equal to an M1 Abrams Tank capable of 60 mph!
There’s a way to parse the words and leave the infurance. He needs the coaching for words by a sports media specialist.

by atlpowderhorn on Nov 1, 2009 6:42 PM EST reply actions  

I think it boils down to talent/depth

away from the Offensive skill positions. I do agree Brown has regressed. The OL just isn’t getting it done. Look at how many OL we’ve been recruiting. Is Johnson part of that problem too? Maybe, but this is the first time in 4 years that they’ve had the same position coach 2 years in row. In the defensive backfield, we have one starter and one major contributor to PT who are both converted QB’s. Our DL was razor thin at the start of the season and injuries and bone-headedness have exposed that as well.

I also believe it goes back to my post about the 2006 recruiting class. Those guys are red-shirt juniors and true seniors, what most would hope to be major contributors at this point in their college careers. There are only 5-6 from that class who even sniff PT. Sure, the offensive “skill” talent is there, but other than that, show me depth anywhere. The cupboard was bare, people and the new recruits (typically) need at least a year under their belts to contribute.

Am I excusing this staff completely, no. Argue all you want about how Stew wrecked this and that, but I argue that just about any staff would be having the same problems with the talent we have (away from the offensive skill guys).

We gave the last guy a few years to “get his guys” The talent seems to be coming…will it develop?

by WVUIE97 on Nov 1, 2009 6:44 PM EST reply actions  

The "we stink with any staff" argument can be answered with two words...

Brian Kelley. Do you honestly believe that a great coach (yes, it’s pretty early to call him great) like Kelley wouldn’t find a way to win with our schedule (it’s not exactly murderer’s row, you know)? He or any other top level coach wins in the Big East. No doubt about it…

by WVUEric on Nov 1, 2009 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

we played a team with arguably the best DL

and we have a bad OL…..yeah, I think Kelley would have a hard time with that

by WVUIE97 on Nov 1, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Seriously 5th....

I love you man, but you really have to stop saying we are in control of our own destiny. It is a true statement, but not very realistic to think we are running the table with Pitt and Cincy on the schedule. I feel raped after this last game, and I have little confidence in this team to beat anyone left on our schedule other than Louisville.

There are just way too many holes in this team to fill, they aren’t magically going to correct these mistakes. I seriously feel like ill thinking about the rest of the season and the future of this program.

by EatSchmittPitt35 on Nov 1, 2009 7:44 PM EST reply actions  

I'm not going to stop...

Saying it until it is true. It does not look good right now with the way we are playing but we are still in the hunt.

Friday’s loss still pisses me off but I am going to hold out hope until we are relegated to a non-BCS bowl. It is just my personality to look at the bright side rather than be totally negative.

As I was walking my dog around the stadium tonight I really wanted to walk down the ramp and yell to HCBS “have your bride find your balls and teach you how to use them.” I can’t wait to hear the rational for the punt from the 33

Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.

by 5th Year Senior on Nov 1, 2009 9:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

rational

our OL was getting blown up all night

by WVUIE97 on Nov 1, 2009 9:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Beatty May be the future and there is nothing wrong with that

We need to consider Beatty in the future he is young, an able recruiter, a good coach, and the young “lads” respect him. I would hate to have him go to another Big East school and beat our asses all the time my vote for what it is worth is Beatty

by FredRock on Nov 1, 2009 8:20 PM EST reply actions  

I’m sorry but the ’05 – ’07 teams did not have more talent than we do now. Jay Henry, Marc Magro, Bobby Hathaway, Boo McKlee, Doug Slavonic, Warren Young, Mike Villagrana, Tito Gonzalez, Dorrell Jalloh, Anthony Mims, Antonio Lewis, Larry Williams, Ridwan Malik, Brad Palmer. Shoot even Jamal Adaie sucked. These are all guys that made significant contributions to stellar teams, that are far from stellar talents. And many of the people not getting the job done now were very solid backups on those teams.

The individuals on our current O-line are more highly regarded than Dan Mozes, Jake Figner, Jeremy Sheffey, Greg Isdaner, etc., etc.

We were successful because we had a great O-line coach, a bunch of average role players who bought in and played steady, and then we kept the ball in the hands of transcendant players White, Reynaud, Slaton.

Now our O-line and role players don’t pull their own weight, and our transcendant players, Noel, Jock and Tavon COMBINED for 22 touches on Friday night.

by The 25314 on Nov 1, 2009 10:34 PM EST reply actions  

You say the ’06 class sucked. I say the 02-05 classes sucked. But we used to do more with less. We used to cheer for success on the field. We used to develop talent. We used to be famous for finding diamonds in the rough, recruiting speed and coaching it up.

by The 25314 on Nov 1, 2009 10:39 PM EST reply actions  

my point wasn't just

the 06 class sucked because of talent….it was the size. 16 signees and only 5-6 guys who play (and one of those is Lyons). It seriously contributed to a lack of depth everywhere, especially DB’s and DL. And back then we had one of the best OL coaches, especially for the system we ran.

by WVUIE97 on Nov 1, 2009 11:53 PM EST up reply actions  

My point was merely that our secondary has sucked for along time but we used to score enough to mask it. Our o-line was never ultra talented in the traditional sense and we ran a scheme to mask it. Relying on recruiting is never a good idea. You need scheme and leadership not just in games but everyday in practice. You play like you practice and we don’t play as well as we should.

The irony of keeping the 3-3-5 and scrapping the power spread is not lost on me.

by The 25314 on Nov 2, 2009 11:37 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

And how long have wvu fans been longing for a pass rush. The d line has never been very good or deep. Remember we didn’t have a sack until the miss st. Game in 2006 and we still were 6-0.

by The 25314 on Nov 2, 2009 11:40 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

White & Slaton

Those 05-07 teams had Pat White and Steve Slaton, arguably the two best offensive players we have ever had. They made a difference.

WVUIE 97 is right- lok at this team- on offense there are about 3 seniors who play, and of defense, there are about 3-4 seniors that matter. I think we are struggling because we are young, particularly on both the offensive and defensive lines, but we will be better.

by WVUSouth on Nov 2, 2009 6:36 AM EST reply actions  

Another Thing

Also, those 05-07 lost 1, 2, and 2 games and gave up an average of 32 points per game in bowl games. The 05 team squeaked by a bad ECU team and a bad Syracuse team and got killed byVa Tech. The 06 team gaveup 44 to Louisville and got upset at homeby USF. The 07 team lost in the biggest choke job of all time to Pitt.

My point is, I’m not happy right now either, but lets not be all melodramatic and revisionist history about the past. We’ve been in this situation before-every year from 04 to now, we have controled our own destiny deep into the season. In 04, 06, and 08 we blew it, and in 07 we blew the National title game. In 05 we finished the deal. I say we support the team and see where it goes instead of breaking our necks jumping off the bandwagon

by WVUSouth on Nov 2, 2009 6:56 AM EST reply actions  

Don't be logical...

Their heads will explode

Leave no doubt tonight! Leave no doubt tonight! No doubt! They shouldn't of played the Old Gold'n Blue.

by 5th Year Senior on Nov 2, 2009 8:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Once again...

Wanting a top 10 team every year does not make anyone a bandwagon jumper. We play in what is indisputably the weakest BCS conference (name anyone outside of the conference who doesn’t say so) and we should win it more than we lose it. Don Nehlen, Rich Rodriguez, Bill Stewart, or Bobby feaking Bowden can’t change those facts. This has nothing to do with RRod. He left and most of us are glad. We have a top 25 coaching job and we need a top 25 coach. If HCBS can’t win the BE, we need to move on… When Auburn loses to Alabama, their fans will not say, “well, we lost when Tuberville was here too”. How long will Mountaineer fans accept mediocrity? We have the opportunity to finally have something great in WBGV and should accept no less.

by WVUEric on Nov 2, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Definitions...

Again, people are bandying the word “mediocrity” around, and again I say, a lot depends on how you define that word. Eric just wrote: “Wanting a top 10 team every year does not make anyone a bandwagon jumper.” Agreed, but being Top 10 each and every year is currently the province of about five or six schools - USC, Ohio St., Michigan, Florida, Texas and Oklahoma - and we aren’t one of them. I guess Rich spoiled us in his short tenure, but I believe, even though I think our status as Top 25 program is undeniable, our runs at a title are going to come in cycles, not yearly. When we are in Purdue’s spot, stuggling each year to go .500 and hoping to get an obscure bowl berth, then we can start calling for coaching changes, because then we will be mediocre, as I define the term.

Everyone acts like the state of the program is precarious if you have one bad season…well, I don’t believe that. A couple of great players can drastically change the way things are, and I believe we are getting those kinds of players.

Friday night’s loss was horrible, but USF isn’t bad! At the beginning of the year, was anyone thinking definite win in Tampa? Hell no. Also, each game is its own event, and clearly USF has the right scheme to stop us. We have never had a dominant performance against them. The fact that they had been manhandled by Pitt and Cincy coming into our game didn’t make me confident. It made me nervous that they would play with some wounded pride. But just because those teams handled USF and USF handled us, doesn’t mean that we are suddenly a walkover for Pitt or Cincy. Also, call it excuse-making if you like, but there was some horrible officiating in this game (I about lost my mind when the play that was ruled a catch-and-fumble on the field was
reversed!) and BJ Daniels didn’t spot us any of the turnovers or terrible decisions he did Pitt and Cincy.

This is why the games are actually played. Maybe I am high, but I expect us to win at least 3 of the next 4, and I don’t think it is an impossibility that we could win out.

Lastly, I don’t think the BE is indisputably the worst BCS conference, regardless of what pundits like Cowshit or other ESPN schmucks say. A good argument can be made that the ACC is pretty damn bad. What is so special about the Big 10 when Ohio St. has 2 losses and the league leader is an Iowa team that has trailed in 8 of 9 games and beat Northern Iowa by one in the season opener — a team that just lost to powerhouse South Dakota St. Also…of the 12 in the Big 12…who is any good besides Texas, Okla., Okla. St., and Missouri? I would say that top to bottom the Big East holds its own.

It comes down to this for me: after the game Friday night I was downright negative, as negative as anyone else. I was raging and storming around the house and breaking shit…acting like a total asshole. My 8-year old son was watching me and I know he was a little scared and he said: “Well, at least we didn’t lose by a lot, Dad.” Perhaps he’s the kind of fan that will lead us down the road to mediocrity. But the game isn’t a belief system to him. It’s just a game, where we tried hard, but the other team was better that night. My son is the kind of fan I want to be…I sure as hell don’t want him growing up to be the kind of fan I was Friday at midnight.

by JP Fanshawe on Nov 2, 2009 2:36 PM EST reply actions  

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